Indie Superstar

Indie Water Cooler Part 1: Eitan Glinert, Andy Moore, Jeff Rosen

// July 6th, 2010 // Indie Water Cooler

What really goes on behind the scenes of indie game development? Did you know that most indies know each others’ darkest secrets? In this latest series to end all seriessess, we climb into the cage with three devs and let them fight/love it out. It could get R-rated; you have been warned! In case you don’t know who they are…

Consider it our little contribution towards your PhD in indie gaming. Also this site is new, so if you like how we do the do that we do, tell a friend, tweet about it or join our Facebook group! So, without further ado…

Question #1: Many gamers don’t realize how truly tightly-knit the indie game community is. Tell our readers about the secret society that is Indie Game Development?

Andy Moore: I can’t speak on behalf of the “big studios” out there, but I really do consider the Indie community a “family,” with a deeper-than-friends real sense of comraderie. I’ve been offered places to live if times get tough, and sometimes my direct competitors have offered to lend me a few hundred bucks to make it through a tight spot. A guy I collaborated with a while ago passed up a contract job so that I could get it and reap the substantial rewards. I’d take a bullet for some of those guys, and I really believe there is legitimate “familial love” in our little niche. When we meet, we [indie developers] hug. We don’t shake hands.

When we meet, we [indie developers] hug. We don’t shake hands.

You can extrapolate from there how that affects the business side of things; instead of hidden books, secret deals, and mysterious business practices, everything is laid out in the open. People have given me the full source code to their games just to help out, and things that large corporations normally guard with their lives are shared freely.

Jeff Rosen: The indie community is really tight knit and awesome. If two indies don’t know each other personally from events like GDC, they probably are just one indie removed. It’s always easy to contact us, whether you’re a developer or a gamer. Why do “competitors” stay so closely in touch? One way I like to think of it is that indies are sort of like farmers selling their fruits and vegetables directly in a tiny little farmer’s market.

One way I like to think of it is that indies are sort of like farmers selling their fruits and vegetables directly in a tiny little farmer’s market.

This humble farmer’s market happens to be located right next to a gigantic combination of a Walmart SuperCenter, Target, Safeway, etc. The guy selling his homegrown corn doesn’t try to sabotage the guy selling his pumpkins! Instead, they will share tips like how to grow their crops better and just be happy that they can get 0.001% of the Walmart, etc. visitors to know they exist at all!

Eitan Glinert: The indie scene is basically a vibrant online community and a monthly meet up for me. Generally speaking I don’t draw a giant difference between us and “non-indie” studios. I see us as a new start up trying to claw their way up in the gaming world. If it wasn’t for the online community, I’d probably have very little connection with other indie devs outside of IGF. That said, I think that the indies I interact with are super helpful and friendly, and it’s great moral support for me that other people are trying to do the same stupid start up type stuff.

Question #2: Independent game development is fun. It’s also sometimes rage-inducing — we’ve had our low points. What’s pissed you off most about the indie scene?

Andy Moore: I think the thing that made me the most upset by our little niche was not feeling “included” in all the events. I’m sure it’s as much my introversion as it was others not even thinking about it or making it intentional, but there’s a few cliques that just didn’t pay any attention to me for the longest time. I felt pretty beat up about that at times, but thankfully I’ve always known and been on really good terms with a dozen or so in the community. I can’t imagine how other folks feel that don’t have those connections.

Jeff Rosen: I really have no complaints about fellow developers, but there are some aspects of the indie scene that I find frustrating. We were recently asked to speak at GDC San Francisco, and thus got invited to an exclusive GDC speaker / press mingling event. This was right when we were beginning development of the Humble Bundle, and we thought it would be a great way to explain it to some press people and drop some exclusive info. I remember walking up to a group of 5 journalists from top gaming sites, hanging out amongst themselves. I sort of wedged myself in there during a lull in the conversation and introduced myself as an indie developer. I kid you not, they dispersed before I could even say “Humble Indie Bundle.”

I remember walking up to a group of 5 journalists from top gaming sites… I [introduced] myself as an indie developer. I kid you not, they dispersed before I could even say “Humble Indie Bundle.”

I have never been so snubbed in my life; it was as if I forgot to put on pants or something! That was a pretty low-point for me, and it’s hard not to take personally.

I feel like indie developers can sometimes be the same way though, and that’s something the community can work on. I try to keep Wolfire in check by perpetually idling in our public IRC channel. John mans a live chat widget, and we respond to all email usually within hours. We try to blog every day to keep people up to date with what we’re doing. People have accused us of being naive and this sort of transparency can’t scale. However, we sold 130,000 Humble Indie Bundles and, despite that volume, were able to maintain inbox zero throughout the whole promotion (although at some points it was tough). It’s hard for me to imagine a scenario where you have so many customers and are drowning in money so badly that you just don’t have the time to talk to someone.

Eitan Glinert: The indie scene hasn’t pissed me off too much, to be honest. Game development in general has, and I can definitely point to some big annoying things there, but the indie aspect of it hasn’t really bothered me.

In case you were wondering: yes, Jeff is a superstar, and he is talking about that Humble Indie Bundle!

Question #4: Just ’cause you made an iPhone game doesn’t make you indie… or does it?

Jeff Rosen: I think it does, assuming the qualifications above are met. Whether an iPhone game developer considers himself “indie” or even cares is another question. I feel like most iPhone developers have their own tight-knit community around WWDC and elsewhere and don’t really identify with the “indie scene” that we are discussing, but they are more than welcome!

Eitan Glinert: If it was a thing you are trying to make a living off the iPhone game then yeah, you’re indie. If you have a full time job and are trying to switch to full time game dev by working on the iPhone game at night then yeah, you’re indie. If you are a hobbyist and flooding the market with another shitty shovelware game with nothing innovative then no, you’re not indie.

Andy Moore: The whole question of “what is Indie” is really subjective; we might as well touch on “art” while we’re at it and call Ebert in here. *rolls eyes* But I’ll give you my opinion!

First, I don’t believe being “Indie” is a black-or-white proposition. It’s a sliding scale! By thinking of things this way, you can dodge around a variety of arguments on this subject. Secondly, I think the foundation of “Indie” is the sense of creative control on the product you are making.

Secondly, I think the foundation of “Indie” is the sense of creative control on the product you are making.

A programmer-for-hire for a big company isn’t Indie, but the company itself might be. People within the company might be more indie than others. But smaller teams are more likely to have more creative control, and thus will have a higher Indie-rating than others.

I’m working on SteamBirds 2 right now, and I’m getting a lot of advice and help from outside parties, and teaming up with quite a few people on implementation. This means I’m not entirely 100% indie, but I’m still retaining all of my creative control and only dealing with other indie folks. I figure I’m down to a 95% Indie rating.

The obvious conclusion from this is that if your company is publicly traded — or you are working with or for a company that is — there are certain things you can’t do (no bare tits in Disney games!) and thus your creativity is throttled way back. You suddenly can’t innovate. You start getting marketing folks telling you what to do, and investors laying down demands. Your Indie cred starts scaling back.

That said, your “Indie status” changes from project-to-project, as far as I’m concerned. I was 0% indie for that contract job I did last year, but I’m 95% on the game I’m making now. Does that make me 45% on average? I don’t care! All I know is how I feel now.

Eitan Glinert (after pondering over Jeff’s response): If you are a hobbyist and flooding the market with another shitty shovelware game with nothing innovative then no, you’re not indie.

Andy Moore: I’m going to strongly disagree with you on this point. Being a hobbyist and having direct control over your product is – to me – the very definition of Indie. What you produce with your Indie status may very well be shitty, but it doesn’t make you less Indie. You’re just a Shitty Indie. :P

Eitan Glinert: Yes, if you’re heaping shovelware onto the iPhone you are indie because you did make a game, and that is no small feat. However that doesn’t mean you’re a *good*indie.

So there you have it, folks. Those in the know giving you a sense of how things work on the inside as well as a little insight into what we Indie devs consider to be Indie. Stay tuned for more!

Andy Moore is an Indie Game Developer whose most recent success is SteamBirds, which is playable at ArmorGames right now. He also worked on Fantastic Contraption and its just-launched sequel, FC2. He is currently living in a van while he drives across Canada! Check out his game dev blog here, which includes all sorts of numbers that explain how he can afford to travel the country haphazardly.

Eitan Glinert is the founder and creative director of Fire Hose Games, a new Cam­bridge based indie studio mak­ing down­load­able con­sole games that’ll rock your world. Awe­some! Their first title, Slam Bolt Scrappers, is an inno­v­a­tive mash up of build­ing and brawl­ing. Play­ers will reach for the sky and build the great­est tow­ers in Slam Bolt City while defend­ing against devi­ously charm­ing bad­dies and epic bosses. The game fea­tures 4 way co-op and head to head mul­ti­player, and boasts sim­ple yet sur­pris­ingly deep com­pet­i­tive bat­tle mode. Before Fire Hose Eitan spent sev­eral years mak­ing edu­ca­tional and acces­si­ble games, includ­ing AudiOdyssey, the first Wii Remote game acces­si­ble to the blind. Eitan plays ice hockey reli­giously and thinks Lem­mings is the great­est game ever made.

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